How is a corruption reporter protected
The Sunday Show: Investigating High-Level Corruption in Eastern Europe
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hello this is the sunday show dramatic
international the only primetime TV
program explaining is new European
geopolitical storm in English and I'm
Natalia hominy and welcome to our
special broadcast from Misha Harriet
this is the name of the residents of the
former ukrainian President Yanukovych
once it was the most guarded place in
the country the journalists were not
allowed to get in so every June the 6th
that is a day of journalism in Ukraine
media representatives were coming to the
gates to protest against suppression of
the freedom of speech yet after the
Revolution during the first days the
journalists went here and found a lot of
documents which were dumped into the
lake the media and investigative
reporters has saved that data and which
had become the evidence of high-level
high-level corruption Misha Hina has
become the symbol of corruption but it
had become open to the public so you can
see a lot of people spending their
weekends here yet this month June it's
also special because we are celebrating
the media freedom days here at Missouri
area so people coming from around the
region they are gathering for the
Missouri area fest where the journalists
together especially investigative
reporters from Eastern Europe discuss
together what they can do next and how
they can protect themselves and how they
work together in this new world with the
challenges and now there is a premise
for the investigative reporting festival
Majid EFS which is taking place already
for four years here it's not far from
Kiev and now there are not just the
Ukrainian reporters but also
international investigative reporters
because you know there is a lot we can
say about the international organized
crime and there is a lot to share it's
not the secret that in East
Europe investigative reporters were
always extremely important for promoting
democracy for keeping their governments
accountable when the other institutions
were not working so in today's special
broadcast of the sunday show we'll talk
to the Ukrainian I'm reporter Dennis B
Hughes who has recently just received a
prestigious democracy word international
award for fighting corruption in Ukraine
who let us know more on what's new in
this front in Ukraine I will talk to the
journalist from Russia who has done the
Panama papers story on Vladimir Putin
we'll go into details on how
international organization and companies
are working with the rich and extremely
corrupt governments in Central Asia and
Azerbaijan so this is just part of what
we are going to do stay tuned
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another papers had been one of the
biggest international journalistic
investigation which was covering number
of governments politicians there was a
big buzz of the last year but we would
like to know what is the follow-up what
is changing and we talking to Paul Rada
who is the executive head of the Aussie
CRP project they started with
investigating corruption in the Balkans
in Eastern Europe than in Central Asia
and now this is a really global project
but of course Paul knows a lot about our
region but starting with the Panama
papers you know that is a story there is
a huge success
if we speak about the investigation but
now can we speak about the results about
the impact of that because you know
investigations today they are making a
lot of people kind of discouraged that
you know all the politicians are corrupt
and it leads to nowhere do we know about
the idea of any kind of things which led
to something which had brought
some positive results in courts and
elsewhere well you're right I mean
Panama Papers was all about the types of
the names involved you know including
names in in Ukraine and Russia and other
countries but really Panama papers is
about the whole system it's a rigged
system that was used by corrupt
politicians by criminals by
controversial businessmen to actually do
business to make money in an illegal way
so that is what what's changing with the
Panama papers project so right now it's
much harder for them to do business as
usual so I think that changed quite a
bit even if people were not sent to jail
as it happened in in a few other
countries in origin is harder to put
people in jail especially people in
power although in my country in Romania
that happens quite a lot lately for the
past few years but that the thing is you
know you gotta attack the system and
Panama papers highlighted expose the
system in its entirety so now it's much
harder for these people to use the same
mechanisms to do business so that's very
important and don't forget at the level
of the European Union there's an open
investigation into Panama papers
there's a group investigating officially
investigation investigating at the level
of the European Union and out of this
group there are a few ideas that came
out and that are are going to become
practice very soon and one is to create
a registry of beneficial ownership at
the level of the EU so no company can do
business in d-u without knowing who is
the real owner of the company and that's
very very important because that's
exactly how these criminals are these
corrupt politicians and businessmen do
business right now
by stealing you know European funds by
stealing national funds and all this and
secondly one one thing that people must
understand about Panama papers is that
this is a gift that keeps on giving
I mean Panama papers is not over even we
published in March of this year an
investigation that we titled the Russian
laundromat there is about more than 20
20 billion US dollars laundered via
banks in Moldova and in Latvia ending
you know connections to Ukraine a key
piece of information for that
investigation came from the Panama
papers database there's a lot a lot of
information there that is not explored
yet that it that will be explored you
know because journeys are working
actively so that's that's a place where
you keep on going to get information
this is why I say it's it's something
that that will probably never stop
because some of the information in power
papers can become relevant later in time
and that information coupled with other
leaks coupled with other databases can
create new investigative reporting and
it is creating new investigative
reporting in fact we're working right
now at an investigation that is III
think it's going to be quite impactful
that we're going to publish in the fall
and some of the information for this
investigation comes from Panama papers
as well as from other other sources when
we talk to a lot of journalists from the
region they said that you know they were
uncovering corruption before and there
was a high level of corruption over here
here in Missouri area where the
Ukrainian president used to live and you
know what we knew about that place was
thanks to the investigative reporters
but how their practices are changing
because what is what with the corrupt
officials and the criminals they are
adapt very fast assume you found
something you put a light on it they
find new ways so what are no new tricks
besides you know we new takes havens
that was the thing but now you know you
can dig into that so the thing is I mean
even with tax havens you know they are
still using the old tricks there are not
so many ways to go about corruption to
do corruption because you know in the
end it's about stealing money from
someone's pocket that's it you know your
abuse you're stealing money from the
citizens pocket so it's theft
it's simple theft you can put in between
Offshore's you can put you know better
shares companies and all this so these
tricks are still used and one of the
main things here is for instance at the
level of the European Union although the
European Union is investigating Panama
papers and it's taking all these action
against better shares and against you
know against offshore havens there are a
few countries inside the European Union
where you can create companies that
insure more secrecy than the companies
that were issue
that were established by Fonseca in
Panama so in my country in Romania there
are more than 300 companies that are
owned via better shares better shares
means you know a piece of paper where
you have a hundred shares in a company
whoever holds that piece of paper in
their hand is their company so if I gave
give you the piece of paper at your
company if I put it in my pocket is my
company without any other documents you
know attached to it you know so so these
are things that are ongoing right now in
the EU you know we don't need to go to
Panama papers we need to clean clean our
house first you know and so all the
politicians dirty politicians indie you
are using these tools you know so
outside of Panama papers there's a lot a
lot of work to be done for instance in
Austria you can establish pretty much
tifton's these private foundations that
can be used you know in various various
ways and I think actually materia here
was owned by a company connected to
River stiffness you know so so there are
various tricks that are still used by so
it's still the old tricks now there will
be new tricks you know so we see right
now money laundering our latest project
about the Russian laundromat about the
20 billion laundered we are banks in the
EU you know it targeted banks because
there are more than 500 banks involved
in you know dealing with this money and
now we have Bitcoin and Bitcoin it's
still a small part of the economy of the
world economy it's it's really really
small but if you'll crack down on banks
and this needs to happen you know lots
of criminals will probably move towards
Bitcoin you know so we see that you know
how that will go and then we have to
adapt early bit more and to use more
technology in our investigative
reporting to be able to expose this
stuff
Roma you investigation which was called
laundromat that was a investigation with
a number of media but you were working
with showed the how the money will
launder it through numbers of European
banks including the Moldovan banks and
it was like a huge amount of money up to
22 millions aspires remember million 22
billion of the US dollars so what is the
the result do we see what's going on
with this story well it depends on
different countries so let's say that
the main victim is Russia and there are
no any results because there were two
criminal cases started after our
investigation which started 3 years ago
and I was witness in both cases and I
saw that the investigators they didn't
want to do anything real let's say
because the criminal cases were started
by the lowest departments of the
Investigative Committee which means that
the Russian state was not really
interested in investigating the case but
he molten asleep now we had very good
results in other European countries so
there was an investigation started in
the UK and there were hearings in
Parliament and the Deputy Minister of
Finance had to explain you know why the
British banks and companies were
involved in this scheme simultaneously
there was a big case in Denmark and the
Prime Minister had to say that you know
he is he doesn't like the situation and
he's very sorry that it happened with
Danish banks and there is an ongoing
investigation as well and the latest
news is that two days ago actually I you
know I heard about it just today the
friend of mine Paul Ryder who was
involved in this in the investigation as
well told me that there is a commission
a special commission inside the European
Parliament which is called the Russian
one comment just as our story that they
will study the case and the main idea is
to understand why the European banks
were involved in the mind-wandering and
why their compliance procedures did not
work so of course the people could read
the full investigation and we would
encourage them again those who don't
know maybe but really who are the main
beneficiaries you know
in the end in this large scheme there
are many of them to be honest and so the
money was mixed the money from different
crimes was mixed so the biggest
beneficiary we were able to identify was
a mysterious businessman who is the main
contractor to the Russian Railways
League secret even and he was involved
in many I would say scandals and
criminal cases all over the world but
among others there were European parties
I mean pro-russian parties which got the
money
there were multinational corporations
like Siemens like Hitachi and others and
of course I mean it doesn't mean that
they were stealing the money from Russia
but it means that they were involved in
great import scheme so you can call them
the smuggling schemes to what extent the
big banks can control and if you
generally assess the situation you know
that there would be the big bank or
companies would have their smaller
companies in Estonia or the Baltics or
elsewhere so that's kind of a usual way
to launder the funds what depends on the
headquarters to what extent the
headquarters can and are eager to you
know to remain have a good reputation
and can say that now that was not us
right so look I mean an important word
you mentioned is whether they are eager
or not because on the one hand they are
not responsible for clients which are
out of their bank so they're responsible
just for the clients inside their banks
and they gotta check them they gotta
control them and so on but they did not
check clients which sent money to their
clients from foreign countries so from
foreign banks which was a problem in
laundromat case so what the big banks
said they said that you know I mean our
client was a key you know our client was
let's say Siemens but Siemens got money
from bogus companies shell companies
from notorious banks like drastic
immerse banker its license was revoked
recently from Madhavan Bank mod income
bank and so on so I would say that the
main problem here is the will if the
banks want to control the money flows
they don't want to be involved in his
big money laundering scandals then they
got a check not only their clients but
also the origin of the money which their
clients get regarding the country
Moldova had been particularly kind of in
the heart of it all and so that is very
special case when you have a small
country which is more or less you know
so many had been down through that
so really are you following the case
what's happening with this inlay be the
most involved country well look the main
problem here is that the main victim is
Russia and with money laundering cases
you always in order to prove minor one
drink you got to prove the first crime
because minor one drink is always the
second crime so in order to prove minor
one drink you got to prove the predicate
so the first crime and murder was
Moldovans the the main problem with them
was that they couldn't get any talks and
help from Russia so they were asking for
help they were begging for help and they
got nothing with the results the
investigation have become international
the journalistic investigation but how
about the law enforcement are they still
in our region in Eastern Europe are able
to investigate something on their own
and other things moving in in that
direction well they are let's say that
in Russia the case was pretty well
investigated by the operatives from FSB
they did a really good job but when it
came to a criminal case itself because
you know that before starting a criminal
case you got to do a lot of job in terms
of proving the crime and so on so before
the criminal case they did a really good
job the same in Moldova but when it came
to criminal case which means punishment
for people involved then the problem
start because you know in this
particular case some big names were
involved including including eager Putin
who is he's not brother-in-law I don't
remember well his relative to the
president eager to Redeemer pudding and
some people from FSB were involved as
well so when it comes to a criminal case
people are not so eager I mean the law
enforcement and also we get to
investigate them to up to the end
because otherwise they would need to
imprison those who are in power so there
is always a question how difficult is
really to investigate food
you know and what we really know because
I think there is a will of the reporters
to find out something well we know a lot
but the problem is when you see proving
things putting in smart you will never
sign any dog and you will never sign any
financial records and so on so here's a
smart guy so in terms of proving you
know we've proved a lot a lot with
Panama papers and with a lot dogging
case because in my opinion it's not
religions money it's Putin's money and
we we had a lot of collateral proof to
say that but I mean yeah you're right
you know there is no any signature by
putting there is no any signature by
anybody else from his family because
there are smart people you know but you
know if we think as law enforcement we
see that there is a bunch of proofs we
couldn't find a man with a gun you know
who she could shot somebody but you know
we could find witnesses who say that
they saw him we could find a wiretap and
so on and so forth the same ways
financial crimes you know we all you
will not find a dog signed by the
president but you'll find many other
dogs signed by people who are close to
him yes you've just received the pretty
prestigious international award for
democracy that was for the
anti-corruption fighters so you're doing
the investigative program here in
Ukraine which is extremely popular and I
hope and can say to some extent
effective we're speaking about Ukraine
in 2017 and you know there is something
in that that still the investigative
journalist from Ukraine received the
international awards for fighting
corruption so what are the probably the
key cases the most important things in a
way how corruption is done today we have
only one thing that they actually have a
possibility to still it always people's
money I mean if you talk about some
budget if you talk about some rules in
the country there is just
no nothing else so I'm not sure that for
now tactically we have some difference
between times four years ago that's
still some public procurement schemes
that steals some monopolies who
controlled sectors of economy the
difference is that for now we have
something that I can call corruption
competition I mean at the unacknowledged
time there was a solid pyramid of
corruption yeah so any official was in
in this in this system and today's we
have a lot of fun I'll say a lot of
wings yeah a lot of groups that have
some capital competition between them
and this is really helpful can I speak
about some particular spheres industries
because you know somehow my guess would
be from what I'm following that
somewhere it's cleaner more transparent
but that's where there are less money
you know like or like on the health care
there would be the small corruption with
the people paying but then there would
be fields which are really still are
very very close and industries we talk a
lot about transparency and transparency
by itself it's not about corruption yeah
I mean for now we have a lot of some
transparent sectors and we think that I
don't know corruption in this sector
we've gone even bigger than in previous
times it's not true because we just we
just see more transparency can't work
without some judicial system and that's
a problem for all of us because we for
now we
a lot and still can do not so much if we
talk about industry its but no it's for
now I think it's the same it's a heavy
industry it's a bank sector it's maybe
all that have any touch to state
monopolies and it's Ukrainian railways
as it is I think we have better
situation for now in oil and gas system
yeah that I saw very smart taps in
Naftogaz I saw a lot of good steps in
gas sector meaning good steps to become
more transparent and least less corrupt
or okay that that's not about
transparency yeah one with no when we
talk about how about oil sector and
about gas sector that's more about just
smart management decision they don't
increase transparency level they
increase economic level and they
increase
competition on this field are there any
particular cases where you have seen
that the there was a result that the law
enforcement was involved and the people
the those about whom you were
investigating your team had been
investigating that they've been at least
persecuted and where it's extremely
difficult to see though the results are
obvious you talk about example for last
month I think we push three Criminal
Procedure against but kushina's party
against the Lashkar in touch with his
illicit enrichment and against official
from from tax department but the biggest
problem in that if we'll talk about some
results yeah we have much more we have
more results when we don't need to
connect with the prosecutor's office or
with the course I mean if you want to
cancel some public procurement you have
to just wrote about it and someone in
this department who control this
procurement usually just cancel it
because nobody wants any problem if you
need to start any criminal case and how
they add any
official investigation okay
that's a problem look the last one we
here at Michigan the four main lukovitch
residents but rather the general
question there was a lot of confuses and
when we have seen the papers of previous
president and there were a lot of you
know a lot of journalistic cases the
investigation had a good had good
chances to be investigated though is
most even the political wheel by the
Ukrainian opposition at that time it
looked like back then to investigate
their opponents you know form a party of
region and the others we can go into
details but in generally how do you see
that at least I can see any moves in on
this way our present officials make a
very sweet photo with the former
officials from Yanukovych time yeah
that's big
I'd say big 100 persons nothing I can
explain that yeah it just not there
really you know you can't have their
direct link that I don't president has a
connection to that you know guy from the
party of region there is not that
obvious thing to say that there have
anything I'm speaking about the top
official that they have a common
business or something and baby I know
political evidence but why not
you see if all your economy based on
maybe 1000 people they always connected
one with another maybe it's not so an
obvious like the co-founders in some
company
but Ukrainian economy it's not big role
yeah I mean and it's extremely
monopolized and in any moment any money
bag have some connection with everyone
so I think you know we have to look on
this not like on the network of some
connections here without some separate
connections but look with like a one big
bunch of connections and shared money in
very small different in economy but
Allah silica is the anchor and the
editor-in-chief of one of the most
popular and and impactful investigative
programs scheme for the Radio Free
Liberty and have been investigating a
lot of high-level corruption in Ukraine
here so vitally you know we know here at
Missouri area fest
trying to assess some of the phenomenon
so now how is it for your team working
what are they how the corruption in
Ukraine has changed and the work of the
journalists you have your program and
your journalists the court cases with
the security service and you know you do
have a difficulties today what are they
and what we need to know about how the
corruption changed here sure the
corruption changed we could say that
under Yanukovych regime corruption
schemes were much simpler and on one
hand it was easier to investigate them
now corruption schemes are more
complicated but at the same moment it
was we were able with the help of of
this civil society and like civil
organizations we were able to enclose
this close the public registries so
it
it made us it made easier for us to
uncover this corruption because we've
got open register of companies open
registry of assets of Land Registry and
so on so it's it's much much easier to
investigate but now politicians and
corruption errors they just hide it
better do you know any particular let's
say industry you know which are probably
the most closed where it's the hardest
to dig the contract army contracts are
very closed and it's really hard to
investigate procurements for for the
Ministry of Defense but also if we if we
talk we're the most corrupted spheres I
would say that it is state companies
state-owned companies so it's not like a
budget of some ministry but its state
companies which are throughout Ukraine
and are still owned by the government
you your journalists had been you know
followed by the Security Service also
there is a you know a deformation
campaign against you against some of the
your team reporters so really how how
does it impact your work and really what
our current you know your relations with
the state with the law enforcement yes
so the secret the security service of
Ukraine is the structure which is still
unreformed and it's still very very
close to a contrary of other
law-enforcement agencies they haven't
published publicly their assets
declaration just and the law says that
they should have published them so now
it's it is still the law enforcement
structure that is really hard to
investigate their potential corruption
inside of the structure that's why we
are looking very closely into them into
into the workers that are working there
we have heard so many complaints on one
specific Department of security service
of Ukraine it's called
Nicolle department they have to defend
economy of Ukraine so we heard from
business and entrepreneurs so many
complaints on this department that they
are just simply you know like starting
to a criminal case and then by paying
money this criminal case will be closed
and so on so that we thought how can we
prove in any kind in any way this so we
simply went to this department and we
put a camera and we were filming what
cars these people that are working in
this department are using and these
people are making about probably not
more than four or five hundred dollars
per month but they are driving cars
starting from twenty thirty forty and
fifty thousand dollars their cars are
much more expensive that they could
afford by their governmental salary and
just we sent a request secret is to
security service of Ukraine asking
saying that we're going to publish this
report are going to comment on this
before publishing they haven't responded
and imagine just one hour prior to our
program on air we receive a letter from
security service of Ukraine which says
that if you're going to publish this
story in this way this there there there
will be criminal responsibilities by
your journalists because we are Secret
Service and it's not allowed to publish
information about our our employees
after that we published this story
because I thought that they were just
trying to threaten us because what they
do not want is to publish the
information not about their secret
agents there was no secret agents in our
story but they don't want to publish
information that these people somehow
are making much more money unofficially
I would say dispute between civil
society activists and some people from
the government we would be blamed like
grant eaters there is Ukrainian term or
those who like pan occurs so the people
who are not seeing the direct
good result sometimes trying just to see
the bad side of the government you know
make which especially this time make
Ukrainians very depressed and you know
under estimating the good things which
are done sometimes by the government in
a very difficult times at the time of
the war Russia so you know like because
I know like the more corruption we show
there would be more funds coming for our
companies what are you saying that
discussion and you know like aren't
really we are you know seeing just the
bad things and not mentioning the good
things I think it's a role of
investigative journalism to criticize
the government and to find facts you
know that have have been wanted to be
hided you know to to uncover such facts
it's just a role we do not we do not
have to say about like good things only
you know we have to uncover bad facts
that's true but I think that all these
agenda that it's not patriotic to
criticize the government it's inspired
by corruption errs mainly who just want
to the system to not change you were
working a lot with international
companies on the money laundering
schemes and so in then there was always
and still we understand that a lot of
money laundering may take place because
there other Western companies there are
takes Haven and the some of the
government they are cover they let those
schemes to take place do we see any
development and do we see that you know
in the end you're all investigation
could be you know could end in something
and there would be some results the
court the convictions absolutely there
are already results yes of course people
don't get directly to jail right after
the investigation there should be some
process but also there is no straight
effect from investigative journalism and
especially on countries like Ukraine but
there I would say major impact of that
is that after some of after some stories
we've got new
legislation adopted let's say public
registries are open electronical a
declaration is a lawyer's adopted
actually the National anti-corruption
Bureau was also created because it was a
long history of investigating corruption
and a lot and not only of course but
it's a small piece of it but still I
think it's a result in strategical
result and not first result mainly but
if we talk about more international
aspect and especially on offshore
problem I have a personal experience and
personal story because two years ago I
was in Great Britain taking part in two
British investigative documentary about
the dirty money flowing into London
through offshore companies like
corruption airs like ukrainian-russian
corruption are purchasing real estate
and on on the name of companies offshore
companies and nobody know who the real
owner is so this documentary got big
impact in in in the ingre in the UK and
after that the some legislation was
adopted in the UK and it says that you
have to disclose who who the real owner
is and this campaign on disclosing
offshore anonymity is going through the
whole world there are a new few new
initiatives regarding disclosing of
public registries in many many countries
also in offshore world so I think it's a
good tendency and there is a development
[Music]
Myranda you are the original editor for
OCR Pierre organized crime and
corruption reporting project and you are
dealing with Azerbaijan and Central Asia
which really the there is no secret this
is authoritarian regimes in general we
know that there is corruption there
there is no really democratic process to
that the corruption would influence the
society but really what are the stories
we're working now what it developed and
what is the recent development we follow
you know the really very tragic cases of
the persecution of death by january
Porter's we hear less about the Central
Asia though we know that people are
pushed away from the region those who
are investigating well in terms of
Central Asia any journalists that really
did any stories that authorities didn't
agree with are already you know they
have already left the country and this
is something that's been going on for
you know five ten years so it's not new
I think what's happening in the sebacean
now is the real crackdown that took
place many years ago in Central Asia
these countries are operating in
complete impunity you know what you know
here is you know judiciary police
independence doesn't exist there you
will be framed with you know illegal
drugs or you will be just accused as a
journalist for talking a policeman and
that will take you for a month in jail
so and then then you know you can be
charged with corruption or with legal
work and that could be you know years
long sentences I think what's also going
on is that authorities are cracking down
on access to information so even where
you had the ability to report and obtain
documents it's now becoming increasingly
difficult the media of clothes are being
closed down in Azerbaijan the most
recent thing is that for example our
ferl as every service is not allowed
basically the reps
is blocked so they can't even you know
reach the audience inside the country so
the authorities are really working very
hard to shut down any kind of in the
point independent voice or any kind of
criticism of their actions so for
instance in particular with Azerbaijan
in case of Aliyah
no there were so much evidence
international evidence and we speaking
about a really really big money because
this is an oil-rich country so really
one of the things we can you know tell
because it's kind of yeah he's corrupt
it there but what are the ways really to
do something with that you know maybe
there are some times the involvement of
the Western companies which are more
transparent and sometimes you can you
know find something and how do you see
the reaction of the of the you know
let's say international law enforcement
which might somehow find something that
there would be at least you know at
least any I wouldn't say punishment but
at least any no result any procedure any
investigation well Azerbaijan is it's
very good in to bribing their own way
into US and EU I mean when the President
Trump was inaugurated one of the first
the clients in his hotel was actually as
Abidjan embassy who paid for a lavish
party on the day of integration
they have been bribing you know EU
officials it's it's a well known case of
MP well auntie from Italy who has
received money to basically support
Azerbaijan you know for a long time as
Abba John was putting a fake bait face
with your European Union saying go we
want to be close to you we want to
cherish European values and then on the
other sound they have been slowly
cracking down on journalists and
activists and so on other problem is
that yes it is a very oily rich country
in European and US companies have
massive interests in Azerbaijan there is
a lot money to go around and I think
part of the problem is that in you know
from the European perspective what you
see is a very rich family you know
buying property
in London opening exhibitions you know
they ran a massive Foundation which has
been building statutes all over Europe
paying a lot of money so what they see
is you know richness and influence and
they don't really care about and they
don't know about corruption and how
regular people live and is any movement
of the Western governments because you
know we are speaking about running we're
dramatical we as a Ukrainian
investigative journalist
we're you know who had to be interested
in the corruption in the region because
it's so connected started to raise the
issue we are following to the commands
of the foreign governments the bank
officials who say that you know there
should be more transparency in money
laundering but do you feel there is any
kind of movement and among among some of
the politicians there would be some who
are really eager to fight those on the
European and international level I think
all the reporting about especially at
each case of a DJ swallower who was
jailed for 7 years and released after a
huge international pressure basically is
opening eyes in Europe and people are
more skeptical at least about Azerbaijan
and the first family of Azerbaijan I
think what we need to do very often in
countries like Azerbaijan Central Asia
you know average people in our countries
don't know how bad these countries are
what they see is a postcard perfect
images of you know huge glass buildings
the richness the world but they don't
see the real life of Azzurri people and
I think we as a journalist we need to
speak about it and show the true picture
I think there are also consequences I
mean we did one of the stories about the
gold mine that was owned by the first
family it turned out the family couldn't
sell their gold because it became
publicly known that they were behind the
gold mine so they have they were forced
to you know pass on that business and I
think that showed that there are
consequences and I think more reporting
we do the more effect it will have
if we speak about Central Asia there are
because they are not so trying to reach
the West they are not so you know
probably well known so there is
not that much international interest but
we speak about Turkmenistan which is one
of the closest countries globally
Tajikistan Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan and
Uzbekistan yeah
they have really different things in
there but what are really the stories to
follow you know Kyrgyzstan is Sami
democracy Tajikistan I think things are
getting worse there what we know with
the family and he's I don't know son who
might become the president in couple of
years and currently the mayor of the
capital we had a story of the Uzbek East
on where we have cream of as the
probably the dictator of the region who
passed away last year but still you know
so that's maybe confusing for a lot of
people but I think it's very important
that these stories are becoming
prominent so would you you know let us
know bit in some of the stories to
follow in this region well I I think you
know Central Asia is actually where we
can have an effect we've done a lot of
stories in the past couple of years
basically proving Western companies
paying massive bribes in order to enter
the market in you knows Beca Stan enter
the markets in Tajikistan because this
is a big market with a lot of money to
be made and every Western company
basically have their fingers on it and
they want to make money and I think the
good thing about our part of the world
is there is a rule of law and now if our
company goes and bribes some official in
Tajikistan in Uzbekistan the authorities
here will react and we really define the
company or they might be even a
persecution I think in case of ganado
karim OA which i worked on together with
SAT yes she is the former yeah she you
know she's now in the house arrest
people who worked with her who are
laundering money for her a role jailed
in Uzbekistan the US authorities are
looking for to recover more than billion
dollar you know Tilia scenario will be
find probably about eight hundred
million dollar or over a billion dollar
for bribing the regime wimple calm has
already been fined hundreds of millions
of dollars so I think there are
consequences and I think you know the
way we what
can do is you know somebody in
Uzbekistan doesn't care about keeping
money in Uzbekistan you know they're not
stealing in order to own a massive
palaces they're what they're stealing
for is in order to you know have Palace
in France in the UK in Hong Kong in the
plan you're invested in this is they're
also places where they'll keep their
money so as long as we watch out for
this report about corruption report
about the bribe there is a chance that
that money will be recovered for the
people looking more details on the
development in Tajikistan because this
is probably the least covered country is
the poorest you know there is some
speculative you know Kyrgyzstan the
journalist still can travel there whose
bukistan is also a very you know rich in
terms of resources Kazakhstan is trying
to get for investment with their gas
companies but these come to where really
for a lot of time have been ignored
because it's poor it doesn't have that
much oil reserve but that's what we know
that it's really now when they're more
and more journalists kicked out and
there is some kind of the even the worse
situation
well Tajikistan you know President has
many daughters and those donors are a
husband yes and no be annoying and
anytime you do the investigation about
one daughter yes then you know the
president is very sensitive about his
daughters but even more about the son
in-laws who are basically running the
business and what we have done you know
did these people you know one son-in-law
will own literally his own Empire and
thus Empire would control you know a
huge percentage of the economy it's
going to range from the mine still you
know even you know issuing car license
plates in the country so basically you
have one family which is trying to
control the whole country okay so keep
up the good work I think it's really you
know I mean being a Ukrainian we know
how difficult is sometimes to raise an
international attention when it's needed
because you know it's not just about
them but about the fact that I mean the
money i laundered elsewhere and you
still expect from the West some standard
if you speak about well using a rule of
four
really then you you see the central asia
where you know even we don't pay enough
attention to explain what's happening
well as a journalist it's a fascinating
region for me
you know in my part of the world is
somebody steals a million you think it's
a big deal in that part of the world
people stealing billions and you know i
and and they do it so bluntly and
without even trying to hide they act as
you know there is nobody who will ever
do anything to them I do think it's also
the interesting thing because you know
the the region is still a sphere of
influence of Russia so there is a you
know the Western companies trying to
come but therefore it's not so under the
security of the foreign reporters as
some others region where there is a long
history of the Western companies working
that is true I mean foreign reporters
are normally not allowed in and then if
you do if you are allowed in the country
you will be followed and I think we do
more damage than good by basically for
example working with the local reporters
who then get harassed and in a lose job
or are suffering in other ways I think
you know those of the countries were
Secret Service's conducting massive
surveillance they are monitoring all the
communications you know your hotel might
be bugged you might have a camera in
your hotel so the Western reporter you
need to be extremely careful what you do
and how you act
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it's Katya investigative reporter from
the Washington Post and you were dealing
with the difficult cases of
investigating your own security service
homeland security in the u.s. Abu Ghraib
so you know this isn't especially the
Abu Ghraib story it's kind of an old
story so we knew that there was abuse by
the the US Army in the prison in Iraq if
you speak about the investigation of the
Abu Ghraib you know that was kind of
like game changer because there was
still when one day this story had been
brought to the light well there was the
you know still the u.s. tried to play
the signal vividly the good power which
you know try to you know we speak about
the freedom sprig and speaking about the
democracy and it was kind of an evidence
you know that what how many wrongdoings
the Bush administration had been doing
there later there was a Guantanamo but
with this kind of investigation what was
the infant had it changed the way the
the army operating especially in the
sensitive cases of dealing with the
suspect terrorists you know what I still
the practices which are existing at war
maybe the government had to respond and
to stop the our investigation showed
that the the abuse at Abu Ghraib and
Guantanamo Bay was much deeper and bro
and was previously disclosed so the
administration at the time said that the
Abu Ghraib abuses and the abuses at
Guantanamo or isolated incidents and
they were confined to just a small band
of army men and women but that wasn't
really the case and when we were able to
get access to all the documents and all
the photographs and the internal
investigations we quickly realized that
this was part of a concerted effort by
the military and by the CIA to to break
down these detainees and to try to get
as much information as possible out of
them pleaded with us not to publish it
they believed that the military was
going to be at risk if we publish this
information and we decided to go ahead
and publish it because we believe that
that what the military was doing a lot
of the military lawyers and a lot of
people in the military felt that that
across the line and that by torturing
detainees was a violation of the Geneva
Conventions and by doing that that we
were putting our own servicemen and
women at risk if they ever got caught or
captured that they would be tortured as
well so in a way we felt that we were
doing the public service by exposing
this were the people punishing them you
know they're there because there is
always the case there is a big story in
the media there are a lot of talks and
then there is a long court hearing and
sometimes these cases are kind of
dropped from public memory right so a
small band of people were convicted of
crimes for abusing the prisoners but the
people up the chain of command were
not held accountable and to this day
they've never been held accountable I
think it's absolutely outrageous because
these are the people who were
responsible for the command and control
of Abu Ghraib they're responsible for
the men and women under their command
and they should be held accountable just
like anybody else should be held
accountable are there any tools which
you are following that the law
enforcement agencies could really
implement in order to be more
accountable we meet be more transparent
it's really the the difficult situation
we understand we have we are in a
country in war in a war where there is a
security threat where you people you
definitely sometimes talking to I mean
the criminals or suspect terrorists so
there is a chance to cross the line so
what a practices maybe had been enforced
and might be enforced this line it's
more difficult for them to cross we have
whistleblower protections in in our
country so whistleblower is somebody who
comes forward blows the whistle and says
I am witness to crime I'm a witness to
wrongdoing on witness to corruption and
so we have some processes that are in
place that protect people who do that in
the military they're there they're not
that strong and so I think strengthening
those protections so that it not only
encourages people to come forward when
they see wrongdoing but protects them
from retaliation when they come forward
and report wrongdoing how come on is the
practice of the cover-up in law
enforcement how come on is this idea of
we still blowing the officer would you
know cover the soldier and the general
would cover the officer the person who
who reported the Abu Ghraib abuse was
not protected and and he his life was
threatened he had to move his family he
had to leave the town that he grew up in
so his identity was actually disclosed
by the then secretary of
of the the defense hopefully we've
learned from that and we protect these
people it's really important to protect
them and they come forward you know how
would you explain the relations of your
investigative union of you know washing
box investigative unit with the you know
the security services like NSA papers
like The Washington Post they
independent but they're close to
government the government usually need
them you have the press Corp you do the
lot of stories you need to have the you
know the interview the top officials so
at the same time they need these papers
at the same time there is an
investigative unit which digs into this
heart of the system and does something
they would really dislike so there is
this kind of a general brand of
Washington Post and investigative unit
so how you build the relations our
newsroom is completely independent of
the government yeah and we do not
cooperate with them we do not share
information with them we see ourselves
as a check and balance on the power of
the government none of our reporters
would ever compromise their positions or
their integrity to get access to a story
and if somebody doesn't want to give us
access to something and they want
something in return we don't do deals
like that we will walk away from it and
if somebody denies us access sometimes
it's almost a badge of honor and we are
able to get the information
other ways the security service always
put this argument that it's about
security how you answer this question
for yourself whether the cases where you
have doubts who doing danger really you
know are you going too far how you and
your journalist what are red lines for
you so it is a balancing act and so we
always listen very carefully to the
intelligence services and sometimes the
White House will contact our top editors
sometimes the head of the CIA or NSA
will contact our top editors in the case
of Abu Ghraib the Secretary of Defense
and his people contacted our top editors
and so we will always listen to them
we'll ask them why they believe that the
disclosure of this information is
perilous to maybe people in the field
maybe it would expose methods and
sources maybe it might expose
intelligence agents and get them killed
you know we obviously don't want to do
anything that's going to expose ongoing
investigations and or expose
intelligence sources so we'll always
listen to them and then we decide what
we think is the most important thing
for our readers
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