Financial Assessments

afternoon everyone welcome to this

afternoon's special webinar on financial

assessments right please could you join

us on for the lovely lovely sunny

afternoon where you are if you haven't

been along to one of these events before

one of these webinars before hi in

Portsmouth from foundations we're here

to help and support local authorities

and home improvement agencies across

England particularly with anything

related to disabled facilities grants

inside webinar on financial assessments

this afternoon if you're interested we

do a free range of quality standard

assessments around DFG do free DFT

training sessions on legislation

regulations within to those a week at

the moment and they're totally free of

charge as well and if you're interested

in looking at your DFG process we can

also do workshop around that interesting

any of those please go to the

foundation's website or email us at info

at foundation's WK comm I said this

afternoon we're going to be looking at

financial assessments and particularly

social care financial assessments as all

introduced down in the military we'll be

talking to us about that but you may

have seen some of the presentations done

before around and the DFG means test in

particular and as you may guess I'm not

a great fan of the existing DFG means

test it's something that's based on

hasn't benefit and the idea back when it

was introduced in late 80s early 90s was

to target grant aid on the most needy

households as they put it back then it

was introduced in 1989 acts of

parliament and he was criticized as

early as a review they did have it in

1992 subsequent reviews in 2005 2011 and

2018 or recommended looking at how

social care was assessed as an

alternative to the DFG means test and so

that's what we're going to look at in

more detail this afternoon I think some

of the issues to bear in mind is is it

fair to have separate tests for home


ho meditations something that may need

both to live independently at home and

as issues no social care of they've kept

up the political gender in recent works

and the notion of introducing care cap

has been floated again if we had the

same system for both and could that make

it easier for adaptations and to

contribute towards a care camp for

instance based on if you're spending

money towards adaptations then you're

less likely to need as much care in the

future so you're spending less on care

and you're so less likely to have to

reach your care cap so that would save

the country money as well so it could be

a win-win for everybody

so say we've got an Dan roast here from

turquoise training this afternoon Susur

who's an expert in character financial

assessments and will be taking us

through how they work so we in we've got

chat box as usual so please feel free to

chat along either either comments to us

or or tea to each other as we go through

and we've also got a question-and-answer

box so if you've got particular

questions that you like answering please

pop them in there and I will pose them

to down either at the end of or as we go

through the presentation so I will stop

sharing my screen and invite down to

share his screen and to introduce

himself thank you very much that's

giving one second my screen up there

okay thanks thanks everyone for coming

on for having me it's nice to see were

nice to be invited to talk about this

what I'm planning on on looking at today

is is going through how the functional

assessment means test works this is I do

a three day course on this for local

authority financial Assessors to learn

how to do the job to try and get them up

to speed you know if they've never done

it before or if they've been doing it

for four decades we're going to cover

quite a lot of what we cover in that in

three days in now in a bit so it's going

to be relatively top top level gonna

call out

a lot of the the most interesting I say

interesting hopefully hopefully

somewhere interesting and in trying to

bring some insights I said how it works

how it might affect any changes to to

DFG let me just you know a little bit

about Who I am so I run a training

company we do consultancy and we do

training on Social Care finances but

also on benefits on universal credit on

council tax all sorts of different

different things with a lot of different

organizations so we work with the

Guardian newspaper to provide the budget

day coverage on what changes mean for

benefit claimants the work with the BBC

making sure that the characters in

EastEnders get the right benefits based

on their personal circumstances with

various housing associations with with

organizations that are helping people

off benefits and into work and I've

worked with many many different councils

so the thing that's most relevant here

is I've trained dozens of local

authority officers in how to perform a

financial assessment we're doing that

for about four or five years before that

I worked in Housing Benefit for about

ten years so I've got experience on both

sides of this the that means test for

Housing Benefit the means test for

Social Care all right so what's the plan

what we're actually gonna get a look at

so we'll start out by talking about the

the point of the Care Act so came in in

2012 and then was put into into force

some for furnished assessments 2020 not

2012 might say 2015 2015

look at my welfare benefits head on

there 2012 came to effect with financial

assessments from 2016 so we'll talk

about why they did that was the what's

the point of it what was the aim of this

assessment and then we'll we'll go


an overview of the calculation so you've

got an idea where we're going this is

the plan this is the intention and then

we'll itemize each thing so we'll go

through income how do we look at income

what do we ignore what do we take into

account how do we hardly analyze

someone's income would be the same for

capital so your savings you capital what

what do we treat as something that's

given have an effect on your finances

and then finally we'll look at your

expenditure so looks like what income

you've got what money you've got coming

in well well then analyze one of that do

you need what can you keep what would we

expect you to need for your personal

circumstances and various other things

that we think you need to pay for so the

care at the the point of the care act

really was there's a lot of lot of

things lots of things to it but for the

financial assessment side of things why

why is it been set out the way it has

well prior to the prior to this

legislation the assessment of what you

need to contribute towards your care

across across England and Wales was

guidance from the legislation there's a

lot of things were set out in such a way

that the local authority had a lot of

scope for changing it to to how they how

they would like it to be there's a lot

of different things going on in

different different local authorities

such that you could have very similar

circumstances be in neighboring

authorities and have to contribute very

different amounts the Care Act is

designed to make that uniform and to

make sure that across the country in

every local authority no one pays more

for their care than they can afford when

I do this course in local authorities

and make that amount sure that everyone

says that starts so what are we here to

learn we're here to make sure no one

pays more for their care that they can

afford we're gonna go into my detail

where we do an assessment to figure out

exactly what you can what you can afford

and what you can't we're also an aim

behind the front the finance the

financial assessment is to promote

well-being it's not just making sure

that you've got enough money

it's ensuring that you have enough money

to to to to have the best to be able to

live the best life that you can so it's

not just making sure you have the money

it's making sure you've got enough money

to do the things that are gonna be good

for you not just the bare minimum or go

to try make sure you have the best life

that you can by keeping the enough money

to pay for the right things we're going

to analyze just the finances of an

individual so with benefits with EF G's

previously these assessment is for a

couple so a couple maybe maybe a

household when a look at your

circumstances together with with a

furnished assessment we're just looking

at individuals so you'll you personally

what is your money we're not interested

in you partners if your partner's got

money coming in they've got savings

they've got expenses that doesn't matter

it's what your individual finances are

and then the way it's set up is to try

and make sure that money which you have

got which is designed to to support your

care needs is going to be used for that

so any excess money you've got money

which we think you don't need once

you've covered all your costs and money

which you've been paid didn't Brittany

to pay for your care we're going to take

that into account so again very

different to benefits for it very

different to Housing Benefit tests where

money that's being paid to you to

support your care needs is going to be

not in our assessment we're looking at

what money do you have to pay for your

care so we are going to take it into

into account

so your attendance allowance your

personal independence payment on the

other conversely the other side we're

gonna try and encourage certain behavior

by disregarding some of your you're

hearing them and the most important one

of the most striking one of those is

your your earnings so if you're working

then again it benefits we're gonna take

your your income from your new

employment or self-employment into

account but in a financial assessment

we're not we've been making all that so

we want to say to people if you're

disabled or if you have a care in a

condition which means you have a care

need then if you can work we want to

encourage that so we're going to allow

you to keep the income from your

earnings so your your your earnings

various other things we want to

encourage you to be able to get about so

we're not going to take your mobility

payments into the companies and

disregard those so in in in a minute

we're going to go through different

types of increments and look at what

counts of what doesn't but the general

purpose here is to try and make sure

that we're encouraging the right

behavior and we're taking the right

income into account when we're working

out how much money you've got to pay for

your care okay so let's have a quick

look so I can see various things in the

coming up in the chat so haven't seen oh

I'm short Paul if you're over you're

aware of that there's not as you mind

yes yeah okay just wanted to check

people can still hear me everything was

was right they see the flashing up so

the the calculation calculation for our

assessment is gonna follow the same

process all the way through this is

going to be true for people in

domiciliary care but also the same

process goes for residential care as

well if we were if we were interested in

that first thing to do is to look at

what capital you have total that all all

up and all the all the capital you have

we're gonna allow you to keep some of it

certain types of capital you'll be able

to keep and of the rest of your capital

we're gonna say you can keep in keep

some the crucial thing we're looking at

first is when you're over the capital

threshold we're not going to give you

any help

well I'll have a look later of what that

threshold is but there's a hard limit if

you have savings and capsule over that

limit you get no help from us if you're

say metres below that we can go on to to

Karen with our assessment I'm at stage

what we to total all your income and

then if you do have some savings we

might expect you to continue somebody

from those savings we're gonna add all

those things together again some of your

income we're gonna disregard so it won't

adding all of it certain things we think

you should be keeping will add

everything else up and we'll come up

with a total figure this is your income

will then compare that to your expenses

so we've got three different types of

expenses expenses for personal costs so

the amount you need to meet your food

and living costs pay for your bills pay

for any travel clothing things like that

your essential essential living expenses

even allowance for that we then think

that you are very likely to have

expenses particularly related to your

disability this is an extra step on from

from benefits very benefits you might

just have a clicker bull amount which is

similar to this personal allowance we're

going to assume you've got extra costs

if you are someone who needs care you're

likely to have additional cost so we're

gonna work out what they are and we let

you keep that keep money to pay for

those things but go to ND sell in a

little bit and then finally your housing

costs we know you need to keep a roof

over your head so we are gonna give you

an allowance equal to whatever your

housing costs are so if you pay rent

what if your rent is you get to keep an

allowance for that your council tax

whatever you pay you keep an allowance

for that your mortgage whatever you pay

you keep it around it's not an average

it's not what's reasonable for you or

reasonable for someone in your area is

your actual your actual costs what will

then do is will deduct you expenses from

your income so add up all your income

and to put your expenses take one from

the other and that will give us your

excess so whatever income you have

leftover we think is available to pay

towards your care costs and then again

unlike Housing Benefit or other benefits

we are gonna say all of that excess is

available to pay for your care so you

can pay that towards your care the foot

the full amount there's not no tapering

in financial assessments they're not

saying well you can keep 1/3 of it will

keep 2/3 of it know everything you've

got over that that expenses threshold

you will have to contribute towards your

care all right so that's let's have a

look at any

additional things we need to just have

in mind before we dig into the

calculation itself so we said before

that this is all about individuals so

we're not we're not looking at you as a

as a couple we're saying you personally

what's your income watch your capsule

well she'll expenditure one of the key

things for that which which local

authorities should be keeping and

keeping in mind is that any jointly held

incoming capsule we need to divide

appropriately so if you've got a joint

bank account we'll take it account in in

our assessment but we'll probably divide

it by two we'll just count your half of

it if you've got it to an income

something like pension credit which is

applied for as a couple again we'll

divide that by two and just count half

of it if you've got capital held with

with multiple parties then divide it

proportionately and if you happen to

have a greater share of some capital

asset so you've got a property in you

are you have ownership of two-thirds of

it will work out you're two-thirds

that's what we're taking to account so

divide it appropriately I'm just gonna

point out this at this stage I'm not

going to go into this later on as we as

we go through the rest of the

calculations but there are local

authorities who will look at you as a

couple the regulations do not require

you to do that and there are no

allowances for for couples their

allowances for you if you're half of a

couple but there's no legislation that

says this is what you must do

if we're looking at a couple but lots of

local authorities do its carry on from

the old the old system the ferry

charging system would be looking at you

as a couple as well as an individual and

many councils think it's fair and

appropriate that we should look at you

as a as a couple but it's not required

so so what go into that in any more more

details not in there not in the rules

not the regulations I think there's a

couple of difference between DFG their

strategy way down that bend engage you

you are taken as a couple so from the

Care Act's assessment would seem to be


generous from that regard

very possibly not always independent it

depends on whether you have the the

greater income with a greater capital

within your within your partnership so

where you've got a couple one has very

high income one has very low income if

we're talking a traditional couple where

the man has gone to work for a long time

he's got a high pension woman has not

worked so much it's got a smaller

pension very common situation whichever

one is applying one might have very high

income or might have a very low income

we end up with quite different set of

results which is why a lot of local

authorities will go in to say well let's

let's have a look at if you if you were

treated as a couple what would be fairer

before we dig into what how we get a

treat England how we're gonna treat

capital it's worth just thinking quickly

well the difference between the two

what is income what is capital so first

of all income is a regular payment so we

would expect it to be paid on a regular

basis so every week every month whatever

the period is it doesn't have to do

multiples of it so if you get a job and

you work in it for a week and then you

lose your job you're gonna get one one

payment there was an expectation at the

start of that that there's facility for

that to have carried on so we would say

that is one payment of a potentially

longer regular regular period um also

relates to a period so if your your

wages your salary is for the month or

the weekly you've worked your benefits

might be for the weak or the fortnight

or the for weekly period that you

receive it so when we're looking at what

what counts as income we're saying

there's a pattern of regularity or ease

that could be and it relates to a

particular period which can be

identified and then crucially it's also

not derived from capital we don't want

to count anything twice we don't account

something as both capital and income so

if at any point we say this is capital

any money derived from that he's also

gonna be tree

as capital even if it's regular and

maybe events to a period what your

interest on your bank account is regular

relates to the month or the year that

you've you're being paid your chest fall

but it's derived from a capital holding

which we're taking into account in a

different way so we would treat that as

capital so your capital n is any sums of

money shares property we're to go

through a whole lot of different things

that can account this capsule and the

derived amounts from that so you

interest your dividends from your

shareholdings things like that what we

treated as capital not income

crucially your personal possessions will

not be treated as as capsule we'll look

at a few details of that later on so

income button when we were when we're

looking at what income you've got there

are potentially dozens hundreds of

different types of income the

regulations don't itemize them all go

through each one and say this counts of

this fans in this case and this doesn't

count what they do is they say they they

call out things that don't count

and then they will assume that

everything else does so we've got some

kind of general rules which we can apply

even if we even if we don't have a list

of countless don't count this if we're

gonna sign the general rules we can be

clear as to what might happen if someone

says I've got this income we can fit it

into our general rule and we can be

fairly sure how it's gonna work

maybe we want to look into the

regulations to check what we can be

furnished or pretty quickly

I can't there as being four different

types of income for a financial

assessment so first of all income from

earnings and special disregards these

are things which the government kind of

wants to encourage they want to say this

is something that you you you will need

we want to encourage you to get a job

you have you fought in a warned you

become disabled we're going to disregard

your income from that there are people

that government wants to support or

behaviors that want to encourage we're

going to disregard or partially


incomes that fit those special

government sanction

activity things that they want you to do

then there's income further care related

purposes so any money that you get which

is designed to pay for your care we are

almost always gonna count you gonna

count that in our assessment but if

you've got income which is set aside for

a different purpose so you're being paid

it probably by the government maybe from

other sources but it's for a specific

thing and we can identify why that is

then we're almost certainly gonna allow

you to keep that money so if it's

specifically set aside for care we're

going to include it in our assessment

expect you to spend it on you care if

it's specifically for something else

we're gonna ignore it and then finally

we've got income from any other source

so if it's not called out as this is

disregarded for this particular reason

then we are going to assume it's

included in our assessment let's have a

look at some examples of of that first

so so what are we likely to be taking

into account so things like pensions

employment and Support Allowance

income support carries out benefits that

you get paid which are for your general

living costs yeah they're not for a

particular thing so your ESA your

pension credit it's not for particular

thing it's money for you general living

costs we're going to include it in our

assessment pensions but there are state

pension or private pensions not for a

particular thing it's just general money

we're going to include it in our

assessment universal credit I've thrown

in there as a hits head scratcher

universal credit is for various things

some of it is general some of a is for

specific things like looking after your

children or pay for your rent and it's

one that many local authorities are a

little bit unsure of what to do with but

actually it's quite clear in regulations

the universal credit should be counted

in an assessment count it in full

include the full amount and then make

sure if the person has particular costs

like for their rent or for their

children that they keep enough of the

universal credit to you to pay out for

that so when we look at expenses later

we just didn't include expenses for your

children for you for your housing costs

are we going to include all of you

universal credit as income it's actually

relatively straightforward as I said if

it's not something that's been just been

identified as been disavowed we can

include it we can also include money

which you don't have coming in which you

could have that might be income which

you have you've identified but you just

not acquired yet or it might be income

which we think you could claim so may be

a benefit that we think you should be

claiming this you're not we would

normally advise you what you could play

encourage you to go and claim it and

give you an opportunity to do that if

you don't do it well then include it in

your assessment as if you were getting


the most common benefit an income of

that kind is pension credit so huge

numbers of people who are entitled to

pension credit and not claiming it fast

those are people and sometimes it's a

very small amount but it could be quite

a large sum of money

so most pharmacy assessment teams will

check someone's income whether they're

entitled to pension credit advise them

to claim it maybe help them claim it but

if they choose not to we're gonna assume

they get it anyway

and that's standard and very common

common practice essentially by not

claiming pension credit the local

authority is having to pay more for

their care where the government could be

paying it through their benefits the

government pays on the benefits and then

they pay on silikal Authority coming out

of the right pot otherwise it's being

paid for whether the council and they

probably don't have very much money


right so things it's what I call special

disregards so there's there's a few

things that come come within this I'm

not going all of them here but this

gives you a feeling for how it should


so things that the government wants to

encourage or protect so all unearned

income that's further it's from

self-employment or from from employment

special and new --'tis so it's fairly

unusual but if you're being paid a

an annuity because you have you worried

that we Tory across you get paid a

gallantry award for that or you you're

getting an annuity through any personal

injury payment you've you've had a

person's you pay out and you have used

that to buy an annuity a pension then

it's gonna be disregarded

that's called special special annuities

that will ignore them a water segment

pension so you've you've you've got an

injury because of your service in the

Armed Forces

we are going to disregard that war

disablement pension in full and that

differs from regular wall pensions which

are only disregarded in part so again

the government wants to support more

pensioners but they're not going to give

every war pension of a full disregard

all of their income so they're getting

disregard part of it same with savings

credit people if you're not sure savings

credit so it's a a soon to be different

benefit it's being phased out at the

moment but it's designed to encourage

people to make preparations for their

retirement to have a have some income to

to cover themselves when they when they

retire but they don't have those so

savings credit can give them a little

bit of extra money that is partially

disregarded in our financial assessment

and this is another area where the

authorities have some discretion

well local authorities have discretion

in a lot of it to make things more

generous this is where they're often

putting into practice so quite a few

local authorities just regard all more

pensions quite a few local authorities

just without all savings credit that

might be for ease of administration or

it might be because local councillors

want to show their support for more

pensioners for example so that you will

see some disparity in different areas um

income for care rated purposes if you're

used to benefits and how the Housing

Benefit system works then I know that I

found this one of the most surprising

things but you think about it it makes

total sense if you're being paid a

benefit which is designed to pay for

your care so Attendance Allowance the

daily living component of

first independence payment or the care

component of Disability Living Allowance

any of those benefits are going to be

counted in our assessment so whatever

you get paid that will be included in in

our assessment again there's there's a

little bit of leeway here so some local

authorities well I'm gonna say many

local authorities just about some of it

especially if if a person is getting

overnight care which the local authority

isn't paying for then they're going to

allow them to keep some of this benefit

in order to to pay that overnight care

but they don't have to and regulation

says these benefits should be counted in

the assessment and so like I say I'd say

probably the majority of local

authorities use local discretion to

disregard some of this but they are not

required to and plenty don't and then

finally we've got income for particular

other things so if you even if you're

being paid money particulate benefits

and it's designed to pay out for a

particular cost so Housing Benefit is

probably the primary example of that

you're being paid housing benefit is to

pay your rent council tax support you

receiving that is to pay your council

tax that is probably just a discount on

your council tax but if you happen to be

paid or some really disregarded child

benefits child tax credit those payments

are also designed to meet the costs for

your children what else we got mobility

payments yeah so if you're being paid

tip or DLA for mobility then then those

those payments are going to be

disregarded if we if we take them into

account you can't pay for these things

you can't get around you can't support

your children you can't pay your rent so

we're gonna disregard them and I need to

keep the full full amount and allow you

to pay for those things that we know you

need to pay for okay and then just to

wrap this section up and maybe we'll

have a look at any questions that I've

come so far what we're going to do is

we're going to total all the all of your


so if you are in this example we've got

someone with a state pension they're

also being paid the high rate of

Attendance Allowance they're getting a

private pension any of these sums up

weekly they get some how's it benefit

their you have a part-time job possibly

somebody on the high rate of Attendance

Allowance it's maybe unlikely that they

have part-time earnings but you get the

idea that we've got some income coming

in and some of it is gonna be ignored so

the Housing Benefit ignored because

you've got to pay your rent and the

Earned Income ignored because you want

to encourage people to work so this

person we're gonna add up there the rest

of their income the state pension the

private pension the Attendance Allowance

and we'll have a total income of 289

pounds and ATP okay right we'll look

later on how that would be affected how

that will interact with their

expenditure I've got any questions that

you think are useful to look at now

three I've noted the value of the

existing home is that taken into account

the what the value of where they live at

the moment if they own their own house

oh right

so no we're gonna cover that almost the

next slide actually the value of the

house that you in eat not if if somebody

has savings for a funeral do you take

that into account again well we talk

about capital and that is it well we use

that as a good example actually because

that's somewhat there's something which

local authorities have a big perfect

arguments over whether you should or not

I'll give you my view retelling why and

there was a couple of questions about is

there any passport and associated with

this particular assessment so no there's

not but there's something similar which

is called a light touch assessment so

everyone who wants to be assessed to see

whether they can should have to pay for

their care will be assessed so even if

they've got clearly got loads of money

if they want to be assessed then they

can ask for that and the local

authorities should do it

what the what the local authorities

trying to do is trying to get through as

many as they possibly can so if they can

identify that there's an easy way of

deciding that this person doesn't

qualify for any help or qualifies for

the greatest possible assistance they'll

try and do that at the in the simplest

way if so if your income is just clearly

too high if you if you say well I've got

those pensions and I've got loads of

savings then they'll just say you don't

qualify we didn't assessment you don't

qualify it's harder to identify if

someone will definitely qualify for the

maximum the maximum amount but it is

possible in some circumstances so if

they can they look at pension credit and

they look at things like ESA income

rating ESA and they'll be able to tell

quite quickly whether that person

qualifies or not a tiny assessment

they'll just they'll check have you got

any other private pensions do you get

attendance if so which how much and if

they can see from that very quickly they

won't go through and do the whole the

rest of the assessment that I'm about to

look at but there's no immediate you get

pension credit or you get income based

job seekers allowance so you definitely

qualify you because the way that

Attendance Allowance and Pimp are taking

into account you can't be certain but

you often can be almost so it takes a

small check and then you work you on

your way yeah I guess similar with their

current DFG means test it applies unless

you get certain means-tested benefits so

I guess if this was applied today FGM

you could potentially have a similar

approach where if if if somebody say on

pension credit guarantee and they were a

sporty through was assuming though they

wouldn't need to contribute yeah if you

wanted to make it simpler then anyone on

pension credit guarantee credit or ESA

income related you could eat they might

be asked to contribute a bit towards

their care but it's not going to be very

much even if they're asked to take ah to

be a bit it will be a small amount so it

could well be worth just saying anyone

on pension credit anyone with me I say

you can you can

qualify for almost full assistance we'll

give it to you okay

I think the net will the questions

you've got covered on the upcoming

slides so great stuff great stuff it's

it's disconcerting seeing 72 comics you

think there's 72 different questions

that someone wants me to ask answer but

we'll try and cover them all as we go

right what else we got - got a double

quest so capital now in a in a furnished

assessment it capital is is often a

bigger deal than it is in in benefits

there are far more people who are in

need of Social Care who maybe have not

been on benefits in the past or are

older and I've got some savings they've

got some money aside so there are far

more people with capital and they're on

housing benefit for example how does it

benefit calculations yes

something about money in the bank but I

think last time I looked to me the

average amount of savings someone on

Parliament means-tested benefits has is

40 pounds I think so it's it's quite an

easy assessment whereas with Social Care

loads of people have savings and so it's

a big deal also lots of people with

savings who are receiving a Social Care

may be trying to get rid of it the few

different reasons for doing that one

might be you're you're older you'll want

to give some of your money away to you

or your children your grandchildren and

if you look if you're now receiving a

lot of care at home where you go into

care home you might be thinking oh just

carried it out um also lots of people

who are receiving Social Care will have

seen a financial advisor and the

financial advisor may well say well if

you have capital is over this limit you

won't qualify so let's get rid of it and

there there are perfectly valid reasons

for doing that but local authorities are

going to be they're gonna be examining

your capital in a lot more detail in

this assessment that they would do for

benefits assumption with capital is that

is all gonna be included so anything

which might be capsule might be savings

that we

he's gonna be taken into account our

default assumption but there are loads

of things that are accepted from that so

loads of disregards and loads of special

special exceptions and treat this that

way and treat that the other way um

quite a few of those count more for

residential care so maybe less that's

likely to be relevant here but there are

still quite a lot of a lot of disregards

we need to know about and again got to

remember that it's the capital held by

you and if it's join you help with a

with a partner it's your share of that

and we're talking things like property

that that can often be quite a large sum

it's worth remembering that it's the

thing that often gets missed so if if if

people are giving advice or or and

you're not too sure what the rules are

and a lot of people have been advised so

your capital is over the limit

you're not going to qualify but it's

actually the capital of just the

individual so always always worth

reminding people you were meeting the

public this is what the rule is the

maximum capital n is twenty three

thousand two hundred and fifty pounds if

you have more than that then you're

ineligible for local authority

assistance that's quite a bit over the

capital threshold for for benefits so

Housing Benefit Universal Credit

Employment Support Allowance all have a

maximum capital of sixteen thousand our

assessment here is yes substantially

over that and that is reflecting that

that fact that a lot of people are older

and have more opportunity for acquiring

for have for having acquired capital

over there over there their lifetime and

then also might be costs costs to come

we'll talk about funeral grants in a

minute or funeral payments if you have

capital below fourteen thousand two

hundred and fifty so that's almost at

the maximum limit for benefits if you

have capital at that level or below then

your your assessment it doesn't affect

you assessment your you'll be able to

keep all of that none of that

taking into account when we work out

what your where your captain is what we

expect you to do with that captain if

you have captain between those figures

so more than 14 to 15 up to 23 to 15

then we're gonna expect you to

contribute some of that towards your

care so we'll we'll work out whatever it

is we'll take away 14 to 15 and whatever

the sum is leftover we'll divide that by

250 I will expect you to pay a pound

towards your care for every 250 pounds

or part of 250 pounds that you have

that's the same tariff income assessment

mccords as you do in housing benefit and

as you do in universal credit the only

difference is that this is identical for

working age and pension age people so

there's no difference for housing

benefit for pension credits if you're a

pensioner then we only achieve one pound

for every 500 pounds you have but for

for a financial assessment would same

way for everybody one pound for every

250 and it's quite there's quite a lot

of leeway here so you could have a lot

of income being being taken from this

this tariff if you've got twenty two

thousand pounds that's a lot of tariff

income and makes a difference again it

has a benefit hardly anyone has enough

money to make any make any difference

but here it can really affect them what

are we going to disregard them so as I

said there's a there's a long list in my

booklet that booklet that I use for my

my assessments for my my training

courses I think we've got at one point a

bullet point a list that goes on for

three pages of all these things have to

be disregarded a lot of stuff but most

of it is very circumstantial and unusual

types of things that you're not going to

come across so we might have to hit the

regulations at some point just to make

sure we're doing the right thing but

we've got we can identify a few common

things which are always or usually gonna

be disregarded so first of all the

clients home and so a home that you live

in well that's the definition about home

less that you live in that's going to be

disregarded so whatever the value of of

the property you live in that's it not a

second property's land they're going to

be taken into account but the property

you live in even if it's worth a huge

amount of money that is going to be be

disregarded and the strange things about

the DFG test is done but if you have a

second home and it's for sale then you

don't take it into account is that same

with this one or wait so it depends on

quite a few things there are there are

ways in which a second property can be

disregarded but it's unusual for it to

be indefinite so if you've got a if

you've got a property it's that true I

don't if you've got a second property

you're selling it no that's not just

regarded that's gonna be counted yeah

it's if it's your if it's if it's your

former home and it's been is up for sale

so if you move out of it into another

place then while that's why it's up for

sale will will disregard it it's more

likely if you move into a care home

Community Care home will count the home

that you were in will disregard that

while you're selling it but if it's just

the second properties up sale no little

campaign in our assessment oh again I'll

throw another thought here this is this

is something which was potentially very

controversial in that it was one of the

main points of the 2017 general election

where everyone remembers Tory's amazed

care various promises on the care

assessment which were shocked down by

almost everyone in the dementia tax one

of the one of the thoughts a lot of

proposals was that your home would be

taken into account that was got rid of

it quickly as an idea but it was

officially Conservative Party policy for

quite a long time after general election

it's not anymore

but it's the kind of thing which has

been posited as potential changes

and then you could get a loan based on

that property to pay for your paper you

care if you need it - there's a few of

the things like that where there's been

suggestions that we could tinker with

the system and change it a little bit

more way or never this is one of the one

of the areas because I'll see you your

home is one of your most valuable assets

if if you own your property what other

things are we gonna disregard well

compensation payments most most of those

are most personally personal injury

payments so if you're paid if you have a

personal injury your injury and you get

a personal injury payout from a court

because of that then you will if you put

it in the right place it's gonna be

disregarded it's quite easy to have a

disregarded in full indefinitely most

people should be able to do that if

they're advised in the in the right way

so if you put it in a trust if you keep

it with a court and the court

administers it if you use it to buy

yourself an annuity so a pension for the

rest of your life any of those things it

will be disregarded even if it's even if

it's not even if you you were you just

say to the court I'll just have the

money please I'll put it in my back we

will still disregard it for a year so we

give you the option of using it for

certain purposes whatever you whatever

you need to do with it maybe you knows

I've had a patient in property use that

money to pay for those things as long as

you spent it as in the year you could if

you've still got it after a year we'll

take it into account so you see its most

person injury payments that's idea of

disregarding things for a fixed period

of time comes a few other exact things

as well so if you have you make a claim

for benefits and it takes a long time

for it to to come through then the

arrears of those benefits will be

disregarded for a year if if you are

that's my thinking there are certain

assets of a so assets of the business

that's another example of things that

are disregarded but if you stop your

business your business

can't carry on because of because of

your condition as long as you're

planning on going back to work as when

it's a short-term condition or

disregarded for six months while you get

ready to go back to work so so some of

these things are gonna be time limited

disregards many that were going to be

indefinite compensation payments so

we're talking they're things like

government government conversation for

if you were caught up in events so

people who were paid conversation

because they were they were involved the

quarters beneath the Manchester bombing

a couple of years ago I was at three

years ago there was a there's a

conversation fund for that for people

who are affected by the bombings the

ariana grande concert those those

conversation funds are disregarded

people who were affected by Phyllida

might their conversation payments

they've just been awarded for that

they're disregarded so this is a

itemized list a clear list of all these

things are going to be ignored it's on

the list then we ignore it it's not on

the list

we take into account whereas chattels

okay so personal possessions things

which are worth quite a lot of money

we're not going to take into account

again this is true in benefits as well

so it's not a revolutionary idea but

more people in social care are affected

by this though they're more likely to

you more likely to have valuable things

selling my personal experience anyways

if this comes up far more often it's

relatively straightforward things like

you know you've got a gold watch you've

got jewelry or an antique those things

we're not going to count anything else

which could class as a possession or a

chattel is going to be can also includes

vehicles includes caravans including

static caravans almost always they're

going to be disregarded because they

count as an item not as a capital form


captain well they are capsul the day

they were chattel so they're going to be

ignored finally do you want to know with

the effects of life insurance policies

so if you've got a policy and it's gonna

it's gonna pay out it's worth a lot of

money could be cooler so very large sum

your life insurance policy is gonna be

naught it's pretty straightforward

because you're not gonna get it until

you're dying your your family aren't

gonna get it your spouse isn't gonna get

it until you die what is growing growing

lis increasingly common practice is for

someone is for people to take capital

and to put it in a form with a life

insurance policy attached so if you're

where you've got a lot of money maybe

you've got a property you sell a

property and you buy a you might put in

an income bond so an income bond you put

all your money in there and then it pays

you out Peter an income for a fixed

period of time someone's can also be

called investment bond that being

clearly this capital whatever you put in

there is included and many people have

got hundreds of thousands of pounds in

investment bonds they're not going to

qualify for any help from us but lots of

people will get an investment bond and

say well I want to attach Life Assurance

to that as soon as they do that is

disregarded this is also true in

benefits also true in Housing Benefit

also true in pension credit but it's

it's much less common but it is

something which affects quite a lot of

people and if you go underneath

furnished assessment team in the country

and you say what about investment bonds

with life insurance they will throw

things at you and Tony to leave the room

because it's a it's a way of getting all

your savings out of there after their

hands maybe that's advice for a

different for different client group if

you're gonna yeah yesterday your social

care let's take it in investment bond

with life insurance right we'll move on

no well don't think I've got any other

tips for keeping your money out of

people's hands not I'm gonna share

this this session what are we gonna take

into account everything else so

everything that's not specifically

disregarded blue we include lots of

different things is a few examples so

money in accounts bank accounts Building

Society post office ISO accounts so even

if it's money that you can't currently

get hold off it's been put away we're

not expecting you're not to take it out

any time soon we'll include it in your

assessment because you could get maybe

you've locked it away for five years you

can still get hold of it so we'll

include stocks and shares unit trusts

got money money put there and many many

people do we don't include that in our

assessment stocks and shares and

property as well is very often a cost

the cost of sale well you can't realize

the whole sum in one go you would have

to pay a broker or somebody in a state

agent to get hold of the money

so we'll take a nominal fee off those

things but the rest the rest of the

value we'll take into account after that

not real thing cash cash is something

which so many people who receive Social

Care have potentially very large sums

off under the bed in the in the wardrobe

tens of thousands of pounds potentially

so that question is always asked it's

not always answered but we always want

to check to see if the person has got

cash for safeguarding reasons as much as

anything you shouldn't have huge amounts

of cash in there in the house it's not

necessarily take property other than the

only living Premium Bonds investment

bonds bonds which you just talked about

trust funds there's nothing inherent in

a trust fund which means you won't take

it into account

so Trust Fund is a form of capital but

very often a trust fund has been set up

so that you don't have access to it so

if you have if you have got your money

and you put it in the trust fund and you

say I'm going to give control of it to

my children and then they can give me

the money as and when I need it well

it's not your money anymore you've given

it to your children so in that case when

they count it you know

if you you've put it you know in a fund

and you're saying I'm gonna keep control

of it but I'm gonna give it to my

children I can no longer give it to

myself well it's not your money anymore

you've given it to your children so in

either of those circumstances your money

isn't in a trust fund not one that you

can access so we won't count it what we

might consider in that circumstance

though is whether or not you have

deprived yourself of capital and

deprivation of capital trust funds but

also other things maybe this investment

bond is another way of is another thing

which is very common for financial

assessment teams to be looking into what

have you done with your money you used

to have it where is it gone

if that's the case we're gonna we're

gonna include in your assessment

notional capital so it might be a trust

fund but it might be eight might be

other circles I'll just - you might just

have given it away

not put it in and trust just giving it

straight to your children if that's the

case we're gonna we're gonna analyze

what's happened now there are two

different that have two different types

of emotional capital what the most

common type is this deprivation but just

like with notional income if there's

capital which you could get hold up but

you haven't done we can also treat that

as national capital so maybe maybe

you're even after an inheritance but you

haven't yet got it gone to the solicitor

to get it it's available to you we

haven't sought access to it well will

still treat it as your capsule well we

have the option to still treat it as

your capsule you know you have don't

have it yet much more commonly is this

issue of deprivation and when we think

somebody has given away that money

either as you say they've given it as

gifts to children grandchildren they've

put it in a trust fund which they can no

longer access or if they've spent it on

something which is not appropriate we're

gonna look at we're gonna ask them some

questions and we're gonna we're going to

try and see if it's a reasonable thing

to do so

question is was that action reasonable

was there an intention to benefit from

the system and does it follow a previous

pattern is it something you've always

done even if it's all you've always done

we might still say it's unreasonable but

if we think that what you thought is

unreasonable you did intend to benefit

from the system and we can't see a

pattern of behavior which we're happy

for you to continue with then we will

treat you is still having the money even

though each of netway so you put fifty

thousand pounds in a trust fund we don't

think you needed to do that we can still

treat you as having that fifty thousand

pounds you've given away those of money

to your grandchildren we don't think you

needed to do that we think you've given

away more than is reasonable so if

you've given them gifts that's fine but

if you give them very large gifts and

very large gifts that are greater than

you previously did then we're gonna

treat you as still having them if you

always give you a grandchildren too in

Japan's have your Christmas and you

carry on doing that that's fine rawness

of previous path and if you always give

them to two pounds of Christmas and now

you're giving them all a thousand pounds

of Christmas that doesn't follow the

pattern that's unreasonable we'll treat

you're still having that money very

common it financial Assessors take a

spend a lot of time over this stuff

because loads of people are but doing it

they're spending their money in

different ways and we're trying to work

out is it okay I remember in that write

them start the session we we talked

about what's the phrase we want to

promote well-being well this comes into

comes into coming into that if you are

giving away your money or your spending

on something which is going to be to the

benefit of your well-being might not

seem reasonable to to URI but if a

social worker says it's gonna improve

their well-being or if they can give a

good reason why it's gonna improve their

well-being then we might agree to anyway

even if it seems like a ludicrous extra

expense but if he's important to that

person we might we may well allow it

benefits are very likely to do that

DWP are very unlikely to do that but

Social Care assessment team much more

aware of the the impact on the person's

well-being right okay so we have lots

it's not Yvonne's income we looked at

their capital now we need to examine

their expenditure how much of all that

money do they need to keep before we dig

into that I've got some more questions

or do we need to take a short break I

think okay there's a couple have a look

some very few kind of releasing equity

yeah you kind of have an equity release

mortgage I think the question is about

you know how would you treat any income

from that yeah if you've got an equity

release mortgage then we would we would

treat the depends what you're doing with

it because what are you getting it as an

income or you're releasing it as capital

if you're releasing it as as capital so

you're getting a lump sum we're gonna

treat that as money which you now have

your debts we're not interested in so if

you now have a greater debt and a equal

to or probably greater than the amount

that you have you've released we're

going to ignore the debt will include

the cash you now have in the bank if

you're getting it as a as an income so

there's a there's a particular type of

annuity pension you can get through an

equity relief scheme if you're doing

that then again we'll ignore the debt

whatever income you have got from it the

pension you're getting from it the

regular payments will include but we can

disregard the costs of it so if you're

gonna be paying loads of extra money to

you could you nice people for interest

and premiums and that kind of thing we

can disregard those costs if you're

getting an income from it okay it's

quite specific

if quite quite a few people when they're

looking for adaptations my taker can a

crowdfunding or just giving campaigns

would that money be taken into account

or is in a way of not taking it into


yes so if it's a if it's income it would

be ignored gift gift gift it income is

ignored but if it's if it's a lump sum

which is likely to be in this in this

instance then then that would be that

would be included in the assessment yeah

it's a gift you're receiving will will

will include it we won't include it as

income if it's a regular ongoing thing

but you certainly given twenty thousand

pounds does matter where it's from

if you get it this way well it would

include it you could make an argument he

may not be I need it for this particular

thing and then they might agree because

I just got the got the scope to say you

need it for this thing which you're

saving for will disregard it I wouldn't

bet okay so it would be better to agree

that with the local authority before we

started the campaign rather than leaving

it till the end and having a nasty

surprise I guess yeah but you you only

gonna only likely to have tariff income

so depending on what the sum is it might

only be a small amount that they're used

by you to use towards you living costs

so it wouldn't necessarily be but if it

took you over the limit and you now have

too much minds of qualifying that's not

such a good place to be okay and there's

quite a few conversations but each

routes and caravans that I don't know if

you want to page okay right there always

is I don't know why this is such a big

deal but I saying I've got more

conversations about caravans and I've

had about anything else

so without seeing what the contents are

so caravans so many people think that a

caravan is especially a static caravan

is a property and the the rent on it can

be cast as a housing cost the ground

rent can be classed as a as a housing

cost but the actual caravan itself is is

an item is an object as a chattel so

must be ignored

unless there's one condition unless it

is so intrinsically linked to the land

that it becomes part of the land so if

it's been bricked in and is plumbed in

and you cannot remove it

without substantial building works just

like a house you can't move the house if

you can't just pick it up and move it

then then if it's the gated you've done

all of that and it's engine cleaning

tool and it counts as lamp cancer as

part of the value of the land but if

there's any way you could move it and

when I was served long long time ago

when I was a freelance benefits Assessor

which but evenly as a weird life I lived

in a static caravan in Norfolk and and

they are enormous and but I've seen them

on trucks

he would come in huge lorries pick them

up take them away again so even a

message static ban cannon beam can be

moved you can't be moved

accounts as capital counts as the land

but that is very unusual not unheard of


I thought that most of the questions yes


beach huts are believed the same the

same same applies if it improves the

value of the land the value of the land

is what we would take the same Euler

property it improves the value of the

land something parked on it on land can

just be taken away doesn't improve the

values around okay if you want to see

more we'd be the guidance in capital

gains tax on HMRC there's a challenge we

if you want a fun weekend

go and read what capital gains tax has

to say about karat max okay right moving


so expenditure so we looked at what

money you've got we now need to examine

one of it you're gonna be really like to

keep so we're going to try this into

three different sections personal

expenditure disability related

expenditure and housing costs and they

were treated very differently personal

expenditure some weeks something which

everybody is gonna have so everybody

will be assumed to have some personal

costs this is just before I talk about

what is like in in caring your own home

we'll just know that if you're in a care

we also do this we look at what your

where your personal expenditure is but

we're gonna set you up

very low amount momentarily for me it's

24 pounds 95 a week you get that to live

on that is that is it that's due to

that's it expected to cover all your all

of your costs there's some scope for

variation we get this small allowance

each week because all your other costs

are covered your food will be covered

you shouldn't have any bills

other than the cost of the cow so you

just need that small amount for spending

on other things many people find that

nowhere near enough 24 pounds

ninety-five a week but I think that's

the right amount but it's it's all the

rules allow for some local authorities

will bump it up but most don't

if you receiving care of your own home

then we're going to do a much more

complicated calculation to work out what

we think you need and this is going to

be similar to a benefit applicable

amount I'm good not identical so it's

based on income support and pinching

credit so if you're working ages based

on income swore to pension age is based

on rates for pension credits when it was

set in 2016 it was at the the rates at

the time plus a 25% top-up people often

call it a buffer 25 cent buffer on the

standard rates that hasn't changed since

then though so I know this is an issue

in DFG as well that the rates haven't

changed for a very long time well these

rates unchanged for a few years there is

scope for the department for health he

said so these rules to increase them

really haven't done many local

authorities do that so they they've they

increase them each each year we know

what the rates would be if if they had

been increased each year and it's not so

long ago that um it does bear that that

closer resemblance to what weighs now

and because of that 25 percent buffer

they're still more generous than the

pension credit rates or the incas full

race in the based on so you still better

often to this system but as years go by

it's not quite as generous as it


he was and there are the ones I've been

updating there's no night yeah that's

definitely definitely worse my pet

theory is at DePauw for health just keep

keep forgetting to do it but could be I

could be wrong right okay yeah some

councils do it themselves

I'd say that's a minority though most

councilors have left it at the rate the

rate set by the program what this this

is designed for is to pay for your basic

living costs your food he builds your

clothing travel other personal expenses

so you you know newspaper your booze and

all that kind of stuff any any

anything which is not there's not a

benefit specifically for general general

income we're gonna expect you to pay for

it from this personal allowance and how

is it worked out there are different

elements we're gonna add them together

to come up with a sum not gonna give you

all the figures if you want to know them

okay my email address not happy to send

them to you google them all out there

there you're gonna get even have a

standard allowance something that

everybody everybody gets that's your

that's the the expected costs for those

things of the average person of your age

and if you're a member of a couple of a

lot or not different rates depending on

their home with you all that it's the

standard standard amount that someone

your circumstances would need we're

gonna add things on top of that if

you've got more complicated

circumstances if you've got children

there's an extra bit on top if you're

disabled then there's a disability

premium if you're more severely disabled

if there's an enhanced disability

premium that could be added on neither

of those things I did on for pensioners

because all pensioners are assumed to

have those already factored in their

standard allowance includes

amounts for disability because as you

get as you get older you're not

necessarily more likely to be disabled

or you are more like thinking certainly

not necessary likely to be but you were

likely to have greater costs you like to

be at home water you all right to have

the heat

so you costs away to go up as you older

so pensioners get those those as

standard and then if you're a carer if

you receive or you are treated as if you

could receive carers allowance then you

get the care of premium as well

different amounts for each for each

thing and add them all together and you

get a total total son like I said very

similar to that click call amount for

benefits budget so that extra bit hangs

on top yeah very similar to the TFG

means-test I think yeah yeah one thing

it's worth putting up is not included

here is a severe disability premium so

one of the more complicated bits of the

basic benefits calculation is the severe

disability premium and it's quite a

large sum of money it's not included in

here we're not giving you an allowance

for it because we are expecting you to

use your severe disability premium to

pay for your care that's what it's for

severe disability premium is what is it

69 pounds a week round about that sixty

eight six nine something that it's

designed to pay for pay people care if

no one is paying for it no one no one is

receiving money to provide it for you

so many people get that that is not

including this care assessment it could

easily be added back in though if it was

just if it was thought that that it's

going to make a make a difference up

gonna be of detriment to to people

receiving this test you can include it

as well we know all these figures are so

a disability premium is easily

extrapolated from them just to emphasize

that the issues for a couple if you are

if you're single person there's a

standard rate if you're a couple then if

you receive your benefits it's usually

around about one and a half times what a

single person would get you all seem to

live more deeply if you a couple but

when we're doing an assessment on you as

an individual so the amount for half a

member of a couple is lower than the

rate for a single person and this is

where some councils think that's not

fair so they they do you a test on

Hathi lasts for a couple able to do your

Tesla be the splendor louse for a single

person but that's not part of

regulations and it's not required and

lots of castles don't but many many do

do that to try and add in a bit of


I'm not gonna say it's fair but it's

there as an option right so everyone's

got gets allowance for their basic

living costs we then need to look at

what you actually spend so

disability-related expenditure oh you

won't you will hear the term d-r-e

is look at your particular disability

rating costs and then your housing costs

again is specific housing costs so your

your D re disability rating expenditure

there's money that you spend on things

that are related to your disability

maybe to your care but maybe just

through your disability your care

package package isn't recovering so if

you've got particular extra costs then

you need to keep enough money to pay for

those things and there's a there's a

specific list so the regulations set out

all these things are going to be covered

by disability related expenditure if you

have that cost and you receive the

disability benefits so you receive a

tenant allowance or disability living

house for care personal independence

payment for daily living

then you will then you must be allowed

to keep enough money to pay for those

extra things but it's got to be

reasonable it's probably something which

you need so if you different ways that

councils would approach this but if you

say I'm disabled I've got this condition

I need I need I mean this extra I need

to spend extra money on special dietary

requirements or incontinence where then

most council will just say yep that's

fine if it's something more complicated

or less less common then you might need

a social worker to to say this person

needs that support needs to pay for this

thing I was working sorry

a lot of people in in Syria are have

them come across a lot of cases where

the person has been having horse riding

horse riding lessons as part of their

rehabilitation and that is counted as


so that person has a particular

condition or particular illness and the

horse riding is helping with their with

their rehabilitation we can count the

cost of that as d-r-e and allow them to

keep the money to pay for so there's a

lot of things that it can potentially

essentially cover we've got some some

examples like I said there's a there's

an itemized list but one of the items on

that list is something occasioned by the

person's disability so if you can make a

case for it almost everything could be

in here

community alarm system privately range

care that might be respite care or it

might be that the local authority devise

care of you in the day but some probably

care of a night so you might have to pay

for someone to come in overnight

you need to retain enough money to pay

for that and then various specialist

items or things that are required by you

because of your disability so washing

powder additional clothing bedding

dietary needs garden maintenance extra

heating costs there are lots of others

those are some of the most common and

you need to have enough money to pay for

those things how will we work out how

much you need is different depending on

the local authority so the regulations

don't prescribe how you do that

they just say if you've got a disability

based expense you need to keep it

underneath to pay for it so some

councils take that as okay show us your

receipts and we will allow you the money

to pay for those things so every time

you pay for it or show your contract we

know and we'll we'll take it all off

I'll say okay sure you can keep the

money to pay for that but the council's

will say right you you've got extra

heating requirement or you you need to

pay for extra

countenance parts that are including

your your care package there are

standard costs for them that costs this

amount that's the average cost so we

include that in your assessment so you

don't have to provide receipts you don't

have to say exactly what it costs you

say I need this thing that thing this

thing another thing and the council has

a list and then they include whatever

the standard amounts are for their list

now it might be a list that's provided

by social services or it might be one

which is standard standards that many

financial assessment officers across the

country will will use this is what it's

like heater cost if the person that says

but I spend more than that then the

counselor has to allow the higher amount

that they can prove it so so it's very

common common practice to just use these

standardized amounts and then say but

tell us tell us if it's more than that

even more straightforward and simple way

of doing it is saying anyone who

receives a disability benefit is likely

to have some extra costs so we're going

to assume a basic minimum amount and

we're going to give that allowance to

everybody no matter what they say they

don't even have to say I've got this

cost that Nelson this cost and we use

the average we're just gonna say and

this is an example if you receive the

lower rate Attendance Allowance we'll

assume your cost of 10 pounds a week

between receive higher rate Attendance

Allowance we'll assume they're twenty

pounds a week and if your costs are more

than that come and tell us show us the

evidence and we'll increase it to

whatever it is that you need but you can

reduce admin hugely by just using these

these standardized sunrise songs that

Leslie suggested in the in the day of

children yeah and and it's what I would

suggest as well if I'm doing it but

maybe that's just cause I'm lazy but

it's is very very if you're if you're

going through everything all the


tastes forever so this really really

cuts down on your admin cost and you

might end up spending a little bit extra

on diary but the elapsed time you spend

we're not going through everything is a

huge save


I would say just before move I would say

that some councils are probably split

third each and these different these

different different systems maybe the

middle one is slightly the most common

but there's quite a lot of variation I'm

definitely recommending the lowest on

their rights fine it finally if I final

item expenditures housing costs so again

this differs I think for what we're

doing already this is this is where

whatever you spend willing to give you

allowance for it we don't want you we

don't to say you're living somewhere too

expensive you can't afford to stay there

and also receive care from us know we've

got to make sure that everyone gets the

care that they need so we're gonna allow

you whatever your costs are so your rent

your ground rent your mortgage whatever

you're paying whatever the cost is to

you so if you're seeing housing benefit

the cost to you is your rent unless you

have some benefit so if you rent is a

hundred pounds and you see 50 pounds of

Housing Benefit we're going to say that

your housing cost for rent is 50 pounds

the bet you have to pay you can't

attacks again as a necessary property

cost housing cost buildings insurance

not all local authorities do that they

do actually go and do their course of

them they go oh I didn't realize that

property maintenance as long as it's

reasonable and service charges even

service charges that are eligible for

Housing Benefit that is things which are

included in the rent which are intrinsic

to living that property that includes

things like where there's a garage

attached to the property which cannot be

left separately to the property you it's

not it's not fair for us to say well

you've got an empty carriage we're not

going to cover that you can not have it

so we'll include a service charge for

that will allow you cost if you live in

a shelter housing block then the cost of

writing the communal areas heating the

communal areas that's all eligible

services so we'll expect you to

to keep the money to pay for those

things I think that's probably the

biggest difference between between the

two tests with with DFG it's assumed to

be 61 pound 30 a week regardless of

where you live what you live in and

whether it's got a mortgage will not

support with whether it's rented

everyone's assumed to be 61 pound 30 a

week yeah

whereas you went his his presenting what

hugely higher than the mortgage is

potentially huge in home

council tax council tax in some areas is

getting on for that so yeah a massive

massive difference and all these extra

bits added on top those the insurance

property maintenance you know all that's

up is actually base you can eat you can

be helpful yeah I think with DFG at the

moment if he can afford if you were

enough to afford a mortgage then you

almost so many earn too much to get the

DFG so we've seen this slide before when

we saw it before we have gone through

all the calculations so just going to

quickly recap on how this all fits

together so the first thing we're gonna

do it's gonna look at your capital so

we've looked at what's disregarded

what's not how we how we take different

things into account we're gonna total

everything that's not disregarded and

that is over the twenty two thousand two

in fifty we're not going to carry on

with the assessment I'm going to say you

don't qualify we don't need to do

anything else that would come as a light

touch assessment remember we said that

you don't qualify come back to us when

you capsule drops below that limit and

with some of the costs that people are

paying for their care that is

potentially relatively quite quickly if

they do say please below the threshold

they're in a double their income and

tariff income for their capital we're

gonna add up all their expenses plus

allowances dra housing costs i'm we're

gonna deduct the expenses on the income

so whatever you income is minus your


that's your excess income how are we

expected to contribute that towards your

care costs not tapered the the full

amount we've got a little work

example here so this person he has got

12 husband's in Bank 3,000 pounds of

premium bonds 5000 350 pounds of shares

after we've done a calculation to figure

out how much of their shares we should

be taken into account

remember we allow them to keep some of

it because I've got to pay their broker

to actually get the money we're going to

total that up and they've got twenty

thousand three hundred fifty that's

below the limit so we can carry on they

have a state pension they've got a

private pension they get higher rate

Attendance Allowance and the twenty

thousand thousand fifteen works out

twenty-five pounds of tariff income so

we're going to expect them to take

twenty five pounds out of that bank or

wherever they have a premium on but if

they want to do and pay that towards

their care each week so they've got a

total of 318 pounds of thirty-five of

income we're then going to take off

their expenditure so their minimum

income guarantee they're a pensioner

single pensioner they can be given that

allowance at 189 pounds that's what we

expect to pension a single pensioner to

live on each week they've got the high

rate of attendance and so if we're using

our standards we think 20 pounds for a

higher rate is reasonable that's my

example that's not there was not in not

in their report that's why I'm coming

with we're gonna give him that and then

their housing costs forty five pounds so

that's probably council tax and maybe

buildings insurance and some maintenance

costs if they have a mortgage that could

be quite a lot higher if they have

propane rent that can be can be even

higher their total costs are too new to

50 or 54 pounds seventeen so you just

take one away from the other and that

person will be expected to pay towards

their care sixty four pounds of 18 P

each week as long as their circumstances

remain the same okay

so I looked at about figure using the so

the DFG test at the moment calculates a

weekly figure in a similar way and those

has a calculation at the end which turns

it into a loan or the amantha person

could take out two loans

for an owner occupier that would be

equivalent to a contribution of about

1500 pounds and for tenants it would be

roughly equivalent to about a hundred

and ninety pounds so that's roughly for

an owner alone over two years and a

tenant alone over one year okay so and

there's a few things that we've already

brought out but I just want to kind of

wrap up this with a few a few ideas and

they will have any any last questions so

what do we need to know about this

system so it's Universal so every social

care assessment team in England and

Wales will use the same basic system

it's probably the same in residential

care and in-home care so that's again

it's making more familiar to more people

there are local variations we said

couples local authorities may disregard

certain incomes and other ones as one's

don't but they're all more generous so

any any work any time where the local

councillors do something more generously

but do something different it's all

giving more money to the to the client

they can't make it

harsher than the system they were

allowed to make it more generous not

huge variations but there's this some

most local authorities law needs to

cover of tiny things are different it's

a recent system so it's it's a you know

it's only just been designed in the last

few years it's been be recognizable to a

lot of people anyone who has a financial

assessment Social Care is gonna come

across this system one of the the gotta

say appointed treats disability payments

as income disregards earnings it looks

as the the income needs of an individual

rather than a couple

it looks at your actual housing and

disability expenditure so we actually

spend because somewhat generous personal

allowances and benefits do but then it

assumes everything you've got left over

is available for a contribution to to

care so it would be quite generous

compared to benefits not saying whether

it's generous morally or not

it's uh it's more generous than benefits

it's giving you a give me a better

starting point everything you spend will

give you a higher personality make sure

you keep all of this but then there's

everything got left over we're gonna

expect you to use that to pay for your

care costs that's about where we where

we are right any any further questions

um I think people were just trying to

get get the head round so so the idea of

this was that it was something that was

suggested within the DSG review and when

we've talked to people about that I

think it was difficult to understand

what it would mean in practice so

hopefully everybody who's been hearing

that had through and should not people

who have to now have a much better idea

of working practice and I think in some

ways it's it's fairly similar to the DFG

assessment in terms of you assess

similar things but some of it you

treating in different ways and I think

some of those ways probably more

appropriate actually given that it's

it's a grant for based on disability

rather than somebody's housing as

comparison benefit was somebody just did

asked you to recap about to think about

funeral plans

oh yes sorry yes right yeah okay so so a

funeral plan where that comes in is to

do with notional notional capital so if

you've got you've got your savings if

you decide that you are going to buy a

funeral plan now pay for it so that your

more surviving relatives don't have to

sort it all out after you've died then

the the question is always asked is

whether or not funeral plans

ah well that's a reasonable use of your

money so remember we said about with

notional capital if you over to the

deprivation of capital if you decide to

spend you money on something which is

unreasonable then the local authority my

treat you still having it so if you buy

a funeral plan well a funeral plan

itself isn't capsule we can't say you've

got three and a half thousand pounds in

a funeral plan it's not like a bank

account so we wouldn't say you've got

that money what we might say there is

you shouldn't have spent that now you

didn't need to spend that now that money

doesn't need to come out of your account

until after you died and if you've got

more than the lower threshold of capital

14,000 tuning 15 if you've got more than

that you should be paying for your care

now and then when it drops below that

anything left over that should be enough

to cover the cover the funeral you can

use that to pay for so there's a huge

argument between local authorities

whether that is a reasonable state

statement to make

whether it's very sensible former

planning to pay for a funeral plan and

they will treat you spend out in a

reasonable way so almost every local

authority I go to I have a big on I

don't have an argument they have a big

argument and I try and referee it as to

whether it's whether it should be

disregarded or not if you had 18,000

pounds you spent five thousand pounds on

a funeral plan do you have thirteen

thousand or do you have 18,000 and to be

honest my view is that you have 18,000

he didn't have to spend that now it's

may seem reasonable but didn't have to

but I would say 50/50 21 which local

authority you're in whether or not

they'll they'll treat you as having 18

or the 13 and I'm in the privileged

position I'm not having to tell somebody

they shouldn't have paid for their

funeral plan I can just say in the in

the confines of my home and no one is

going to consider that I mean although

you might now do that but I think

probably it should be treated as a as an

not unnecessary expense okay you may

disagree just asking me to recap on how

the weekly contribution or the weekly

amount turns into it into the

contribution for DFG II at the moment

with the DFG means-test you take the

weekly amount and calculate how big

alone you could take out so for instance

given the sixty four pounds that were

used in the example you could take out

if you're at and owner occupier it would

be alone over two

years which would mean you could take it

alone for 1500 pounds not be

contribution and if you're a tenant you

would take out a loan over a year which

was just under 900 pounds as a

contribution so that's how the

calculation works at the moment and you

could take the output from from this

assessment to do the same thing with it

turns it into a a1 of contribution for

DFG it's something a couple of people

have asked about is how do people work

out the the sons in practice that these

are kind of a spreadsheet or a software

or sheet of paper or and so so there are

there are a couple of big software

companies who mainly will provide social

care social care software so they they

provide tools for social workers to

manage case tones but as part of that

wasn't as an aside to that they provide

something to work this out well not all

there are some specialists ingesting

this that software is it's not that

different a spreadsheet to be honest

it's add up your new income and

expenditure take one from the other and

most of the software requires you to

type in what those things are it would

use some of the work for you but the

calculation isn't is it's not that it's

not that hard

it's the figuring out what's included

and not included that's the tricky bit

but that's the same time for benefits

the feeling out directly this time only

this is the bigger part of the job

rather than the adding up and and with

this assessment as opposed to benefits

there's no percentages and there's no

tape though taking one thing away from

another then dividing it by this it's

just an appalled outside and all that

slide and take off and you then that's


never Emily I've been out with some

financial assessment officers in the

past I'm surprised how quickly they get

them yeah really quickly yeah yeah if

you've got someone with a really really


then a lot of a lot of smashes his boxes

we'll just do it on the piece of piece

of paper yeah and you know you can do in

five minutes ten minutes yeah great I

think I'm just just just um 90 minutes

and I think we've answered most of the

questions they're done so thanks so much

doing that for us

yeah do you want to share your contact

details guess what's get in touch yeah

yeah yeah please do I'm very happy to

answer any queries there's the website

or email me directly down depressed

turquoise training Koike do you write

that down because turquoise when I come

up with a company turquoise trading with

what this sounds quite nice no one can

spell it so do you try and like that now

otherwise you won't get hold of get

older me you have to answer questions on

this how it works also company provides

training used to face-to-face training

now currently fill me up the or online

from do training on benefits on the

universal credit on financial

assessments and what we looking to role

more that out in the in the future so

drop me a line if you're interested in

hearing any more happy to just chat with

each other anyone about how it works and

if you do want any training let me know

thank you Dad

I think I think what we've learnt is

that any means test is relatively

complicated when you when you first look

at it and actually after you've done

perhaps a dozen and practice makes

perfect I guess because with all things

so that's right thanks very much damn

and those that you haven't been free of

long bitter if you want sharing with

your colleagues or friends then we'll

have a video up on the foundation

website in my youtube channel later in

the week so thank you down and thanks

very buddy for attending today thank you